I’ll cast my vote for an annual home-an-home with WSU as well. I’ve never heard a valid reason for not playing them. Or even Mizzou. Sure beats playing San Diego State or Temple. Makes KU sound like spoiled brats.
And, now that KU is out of it, I hope the Shockers win from here on out.
I liked the Big 8 Holiday tournament better.
HEM
Your philosophy is good if you can assume that Coach Self will always be able to get the top-50 players he wants or needs to plug into his system. But that certainly is not a guarantee. If he decides to not go after the best, and he doesn’t get that top-50 player, then he is faced with going after a still-lower (and maybe much lower) ranked player. That’s why Tharpe is here.
One of the problems Self has–and he has mentioned this a number of times–is the outrageously high expectations every year from KU supporters and fans. “We lost all five starters, but we are still expected to win the conference title and compete for the NC.”
You mentioned the mid-majors: VCU, George Mason, Butler, Wichita State. I’m sure there are others. They all did well for 2-3 years. If KU would miss the NCAA tourney once, fans around here would be calling for Self to be fired.
Fans aren’t patient enough to wait for players to develop. Case in point is David Padgett. Posters on these boards didn’t allow him any time to develop. Constantly criticized him. Merciless. He may have turned out to be quite valuable if he had been given time to develop.
I remind you again that OADs Wiggins and Embiid were not the ones responsible for the loss in the 3rd round of the tournament. As EKY said, KU didn’t have a decent point guard. That’s not a OAD drama issue.
I have always enjoyed reading your posts. Almost always insightful and thought-provoking. But I just don’t know how–considering the play throughout the season–you could have expected a better showing in the postseason.
@drgnslayr "Here is something to think about…
If Wilt did sleep with that many women, even if he used a condom, he would definitely have some accidents and he’d have a minimum of 20 or so kids out there… probably a lot more.
Surely some of those women were tall, too.
Wouldn’t there be an increase of footers in college now playing ball?"
It runs in my mind that I heard a story many years ago–maybe from Max Falkenstein–that neither of Wilt’s parents was tall.
According to. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0150219/bio neither was taller than 5’9".
Probably my favorite player of all time. Always had the impression that he never wanted to be considered a special person and wasn’t enamored with all the hoopla about him. Wish I could have come to that game in 1998.
@wissoxfan83 What can the NCAA do to stop it? Salary cap?
@KJD I don’t think HEM, Jesse Newell, or anyone else is saying Self is not a good–or even great–coach. But, unless you think that Traylor, Lucas, Alexander (?), and Mickelson can perform adequately for four straight games, there’s no way the Hawks make it to the FF. Unless they play outside in, i think they’ll have to be lucky to make it past the second round.
Don’t forget that Tyler will be back from his redshirt year. 
That’s too bad Tyler’s leaving. I was hoping for big things out of him next year.
@wrwlumpy I agree with you. Jesse has done a great job. I really enjoyed his blog during the basketball season. And reading his comments on here.
Jesse, you’re a class act. Congratulations.
@HighEliteMajor Maybe it should be said that HCBS is the key.
@HighEliteMajor I just think that there are so many variables that your question can’t be answered. Would Shepherd have enjoyed his freshman year at KU? Would he have liked Self and/or his teammates? Would he have decided to transfer after his freshman year because he didn’t think he would ever get enough playing time? Would he have liked Lawrence? What would he have thought about being in this area during this brutal winter? Maybe everything would have worked out perfectly but you never know.
As I said earlier, I like the 4-year player too. I liked the way it was 50-60 years ago. It’s hard to get attached to a player when he stays for only one year. I just think as the rule is now, it is just impractical to expect a top recruit to stay for more than one year. But you still have to go after them or your whole program will decline.
One more thing…
If Coach Self starts going after lower-ranked recruits, all the higher-ranked recruits are going to get the idea that they aren’t wanted at Kansas. Then, if he misses on the next tier of recruits, he will have to go lower still. It won’t be long till we are recruiting very average players.
I don’t think your feeling that presumed OADs work with Calipari but don’t work for Self is valid. Kansas has had 3 presumed OADs in the Self era–Henry, Selby, and Wiggins. Kansas has also had one definite OAD–Black. And it made no more sense to go after Black than it did to go after Wiggins. As far as results at KU, Selby should not be considered because of his ineligibility and subsequent injury. If he had been available for every practice and to play every game, he may have been phenomenal. Since his playing time was so limited–and perhaps a feeling that he didn’t have the support of 100% of the fans–Josh probably felt that he didn’t fit in at KU. So that leaves two OADs who were able to go the whole season. That’s not enough to use as a comparison. And, without better outside play, no matter what Wiggins had done, it wouldn’t have been good enough.
I don’t understand the point of this thread. To discourage someone from making $1 million+ per year while he/she can is ludicrous. Just because “60% of all draft picks lose everything they earned,” is no reason for someone else to follow in that same trend. To do well in life, you have to be willing to do what most won’t.
Without seeing the amounts lost and the reasons for the losses, how anyone can make that conclusion is beyond me. Did they make bad investments or did they blow money–like Derrick Thomas, Jack Carter, or Mike Tyson?
The 60% number referred to probably included many who simply had a bad lifestyle. Many–and maybe most–of those would not be any different after four years of college. Lifestyles should have been developing many years before the kid came to college.
One of the best–or worst–examples I can think of is Naadir Tharpe. Having a child before he got out of high school was the result of a bad lifestyle. That severely limited his choices for the rest of his life. Could also have destroyed or limited the possibility to make decent income playing basketball overseas.
I’m with ict on this one.
Years ago–pre-1985 for sure (and maybe earlier)–I might have agreed with your premise that a team had to reach the FF in order to be considered “great.” But I don’t think that’s true now. I don’t think one upset–although it’s what we remember–defines a whole season.
It used to be that a team had to win their conference championship to get in the tournament. Now a team can get there–and potentially win the whole thing–even though they may finish at or near the bottom of their conference standings. These conference tournaments have changed everything.
I think KU had a great team in 1996-97; Missouri was great in 2011-12.
Even before 1985, K-State had a great team in 1962 but didn’t win the Big 8 championship. On the other hand, in 1965, Wichita State was great until Dave Stallworth left at the semester. They were good after that and got to the FF. But you sure wouldn’t consider that tournament team to be great.
Our culture is so different than it was 40, or even 20, years ago. One of the problems is that so many of these kids come from single-parent homes. Many of them have come from homes that have been in poverty their whole lives. It’s understandable why a Selby or McLemore would want–or need–to start earning money ASAP.
One thing that could alleviate the OAD issue would be for the players to be paid a decent stipend for playing D1 basketball. At the very least let them borrow money at low interest. They generate millions of dollars of revenue but don’t get enough to help their family back home.
I don’t think either Selby or McLemore would have been an OAD If Ifnances had not been a factor they had to consider.
@HighEliteMajor Is that a realistic possibility? Are overseas teams seeking to sign American high school players? I’ve heard of it being mentioned to go overseas right out of high school, but I’m not aware of any who have done it. And–judging by what I’ve read about Svi–if they want to play in the NBA, it might be detrimental to their long-term future if they decide to play overseas first.
And although you say that the players “get value far exceeding minimum wage,” I 'm not convinced that’s a good argument since they are in school to play basketball–not learn business or psychology. I think that all too often, they are being used to make big profits for the schools and the NCAA.
Other students who are on scholarship don’t have the same restrictions and demands that athletes do. I’m from the old school, but I think it’s time to start allowing some financial assistance.
@HighEliteMajor For most of the NCAA institutions, your point is probably more accurate than it is at KU and other elite basketball schools. But most schools don’t have anyone thinking about OAD–e.g. UMKC. Hardly any have someone who would–or could–decide to play overseas instead of playing college ball.
We’re talking about upper-crust, elite players–not those that even a school like K-State is normally recruiting. Those players who are almost sure-fire NBA talent.
Assuming that there are 13 full-paid scholarship players each year, the amount of money you’re talking about is at most $400K. Considering attendance, television and radio, apparel sales, etc., how long does it take KU or Kentucky or Duke to make that amount of money? Ten minutes into the first game?
I say there should be some way to provide additional financial assistance beyond the scholarship to get them away from the OAD mentality.
@DoubleDD I have not suggested that money be tossed around to just any player who wants it. Nor have I suggested that all schools participate in a program.
The reason I have brought up Selby is that he is the KU player that I think has been hurt most by leaving the program early. And I don’t think he would have left if he had felt he had a viable alternative. I would have mentioned McLemore also if he had not been drafted. Embiid’s case doesn’t apply.
At the time I first mentioned the concept, we were speaking specifically in reference to OAD’s. And only those elite, upper-crust players who have financial hardship. The ones who could go to the NBA right out of high school were it not for the rule that requires they be 19 to play in the NBA.
The elite players don’t go to schools like UMKC. Almost all go to elite basketball programs like KU, UK, Duke, UNC, UCLA. Those programs are not operating in the red.
Another alternative would be to allow them to bypass college and participate in the NBADL but not in the league till they turn 19.
@Kong i think as many people across the nation would have as much interest in a KU-WSU matchup in any year as they would in watching KU-Rider, KU-Towson, KU-Kent St., or a number of other teams that have come in over the years.
I’m Bill Self and I wish (or hope) that I can get rid of Snacks at the end of the season and hire HEM."
(Just kidding HEM.).
@SoftballDad2011 I didn’t like that comment either. But you gotta remember this is an 18-year old we’re talking about. Back when RussRob was a freshman and decided he didn’t want to come in one game, I thought there was no way he should come back. But he turned out to be an outstanding Jayhawk.
@drgnslayr As you put it, Kansas is “in the sticks.” As far as basketball recruiting is concerned, I agree. And it’s tough to get recruits from the East coast–or even the Eastern time zone–to commit to play “in the sticks.”.
We’ve gotten a few blue chippers to play here but it seems it has been a small percentage. Since Roy Williams was from the East, it’s quite possible he realized that his chances to recruit a kid from that area of the country to KU would be minimal, so he focused elsewhere. He’s been lambasted for not recruiting those players, but maybe it’s understandable.
@jaybate-1.0 I was just a kid, but that’s probably the reason I liked that team so much. I remember that I bought a scorebook and kept score of the games that year while I listened on the radio. I remember when they lost I to Iowa State, I was so upset I threw the book across the room.
There wasn’t anything better than listening to Max Falkenstein broadcast Kansas basketball. As a kid, I always thought he was saying Max Falken’s team. I haven’t heard anything about him for awhile. I wonder how he’s doing.
@jaybate-1.0 I don’t know which board rats you’re referring to–maybe I’m one of them–but I don’t consider that someone is complaining just because he/she expresses an opinion about how he/she values national championships more than conference championships. Or expresses an opinion that KU would have more success playing one way instead of another.
Our only depth is freshmen and Self doesn’t want them.
@HighEliteMajor I’m not a fan of Beaty, but neither do I think firing him is a magic fix for KU football. And I don’t know how anyone can believe “Success is on the horizon.”
Prior to this season, I did a review of Kansas football over the past 60 years. Beginning with Jack Mitchell, overall record since 1958 was 268 wins, 393 losses, 14 ties. The winning percentage over that time is .405. With a 12-game schedule that would be 4-5 wins a year. Only nine bowl games, averaging one every 6-7 years. Not what most people would call “success.”
Of the 14 coaches over that timeframe, only Mangino had a winning record (50-48). Regarding Mangino’s team in 2007, the overall record of opponents was 65-87, with only four having a winning record. The record of all Big 12 opponents KU played was 26-38.
They didn’t have to play Texas, Texas Tech, or Oklahoma that year. Generally, three guaranteed losses every year. So I’m not sure that’s the year everyone should be hoping to duplicate.
I don’t think Beaty’s the answer, but neither do I think he’s the reason for continual losing football at KU.
@HighEliteMajor My first comment ever on a board about KU sports. I don’t like for these kids to leave after one year anymore than you do. However, a couple observations: 1) When Joel came to KU, he was considered to be a “project.” He was supposed to be a backup behind Tarik Black–not a OAD. He developed much faster than expected and put himself into position to be as high as a #1 NBA draft choice. 2) It could be that Bill Self has stated that it would be foolish for him to come back since he can’t improve his draft stock much, if any.
I would be hard-pressed to make the decision to return to KU under those circumstances. I would imagine you would too.
@HighEliteMajor Your philosophy that you’d rather have the “#50ish player” rather than a potential OAD is interesting. But if you are going to go after that player and exclude the OAD, you are starting to look at recruiting against Texas and Gonzaga rather than Kentucky and Arizona. You are also hoping for a 4 or 5 seed–or even lower–every year in the NCAA tournament, with the hope of making it to the top tier. Once you start dropping, the higher-rated prospects are going to start going elsewhere.
I was thrilled that Wiggins chose to come to KU. I think this season was much better than it would have been without him.
Also, many refer to the 2008 team as being special because it lacked an OAD. However, both Brandon Rush and Darrell Arthur were potential OADs. Is that the type player you don’t want to recruit anymore?
HEM, I think a coach either has to assume that all recruits are going to be 3-4 year guys or that they are going to all be OADs. If Wiggins would have had a disappointing season and he had fallen considerably in the draft, he would have been playing next year at Kansas. Brandon Rush was considered a OAD by many people. It didn’t work out. He would certainly have been done after his sophomore season if he had not been injured during NBA draft tryouts. Contrary to what many seem to think, Rush didn’t come back because of the name across the front of his jersey. I think the coach just drafts the player who he feels will best fit into his system and lets the chips fall where they may. Otherwise, he will “what if?” himself to death.
No problem with not wanting Harrison to play here. I can’t say that I wanted him here either. But you can replace his name with any of the other potential or presumed OADs. My logic is that it doesn’t make sense to question logic of bringing in Embiid or Wiggins and at the same time be upset that Self continues to try to develop and use Tharpe.
HEM, I also agree with you to a certain point. I just don’t agree with you on how we get there. I don’t think the answer is to recruit lower-rated prospects that will stay 3-4 years, hoping they will develop into a team that is capable of winning a NC. It is easy to use Dayton or Wichita State or even Butler in hindsight as an example of what KU should do. But compare the level of consistency those schools have had for the past 25-30 years. The successes of those schools is once or twice in a generation. And none have won the championship.
@HighEliteMajor In your last post, you refer to Jermaine Lawrence, another big man. I remind you again that the bigs were not he problem. The bigs actually covered up the problem on the perimeter for almost all of the year. And it doesn’t really matter if KU gets a OAD or 4 and done big. If the guard play is not significantly better next year, the end result won’t be much better. Forget the bigs. Which outside player did you want Self to recruit that he didn’t go after?
@HighEliteMajor I assume what you are saying is you think Self’s system is wrong. And KU would have done better by going after fewer top-tier players. If that is what you’re saying, then I assume you are satisfied with the development of Tharpe, who has been in the system for 3 years. And Ellis will be in his 3rd season next year. (I’m not ragging on those two. It just seems that they were the two most often criticized this year.) You feel everyone should be patient because it will all work out. Your posts don’t cause me to think that’s the way you really feel.
HEM
I have one more question (before I get back to work). You’ve mentioned that you would have preferred to sign Karviar Shepherd rather than Wiggins. According to ESPN, he was rated #77 in the 2013 class. As I recall, he turned us down. When that happens–which is almost a sure thing at some point–would you keep going down the list of lower-ranked players until you can get a commit? Or would you then try to go up the list to try to get a higher-ranked player? I just don’t have much confidence that you can go from lower to higher.
@drgnslayr I don’t understand the sudden disgust with OADS or with freshman getting so much playing time–as if this were something new. As far back as 1994-95, Raef LaFrentz averaged 23.6 mpg. Later averages were: Paul Pierce–25.4 mpg; Kirk Hinrich --21.3; Nick Collison–22.8; Drew Gooden–20.8; Brandon Rush–31.7; Mario Chalmers–26.3; Sherron Collins–22.3. There were other freshmen who had substantial playing time who I have forgotten or not mentioned.
Neither Coach Williams nor Coach Self refused to play freshmen because they were looking at a “big picture.” They were not playing because neither coach felt they contribute enough at that time to help win more games.
I don’t recall so many complaints about the way those freshmen were used. But now that a season in which some expected better results in the tournament came to a disappointing close–there are a number who jump on the bandwagon and essentially declare it to be a problem with the way Self is using freshmen. Just doesn’t make sense.
I really do not understand why anyone is extremely disappointed with the way KU finished this year. Or how anyone could have thought “Coach Self had an excellent chance for a title last season.” There were too many games they played poorly or inconsistently. A game or two against mediocre teams they easily could have lost–i.e. UTEP and at Texas Tech. Also, especially the second half of the Oklahoma State game at AFH. These should have sent up red flags to all those who expected a great postseason run.
At the beginning of the NCAA tournament, KU already had 9 losses. Only two champions had lost that many since KU’s 11 in 1988. They didn’t put together 6 straight games all year that were impressive. The tournament wasn’t the time they were going to do that either against solid or great teams–especially with poor guard play and Embiid sitting out.
One thing I think the NCAA should do today is to allow players who feel they have a better opportunity elsewhere to transfer to a different D1 school without sitting out a year.
A basketball career generally has a limited window of opportunity and NCAA policy is too restrictive. AW3 should be able to play wherever he thinks is best for him beginning this fall. He is losing potential earning power by having to sit for a year.
@drgnslayr you have made some good points. However, you seem to assume that college is for everyone. If true, I disagree with that premise. There are many kids with learning difficulties that should not go to college.
I have a friend whose daughter is a 2014 college grad. She had learning difficulties all through school. But she had a physician father and pharmacist mother who spent countless hours helping her. Many–probably most–of the kids being recruited for D1 basketball don’t have that kind of support. There are probably many who don’t know who their father is.
One other comment. It seems that most of the commenters on this board think that Josh Selby has been a total bust. I think that for the most part, he has gotten a bum rap. Most people–including me–have no concept of what life is like for these kids who have lived in poverty and filthy apartment buildings their whole life.
Besides, according to http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXsXXselbyjo01.html&t=15 Selby made more than $1.3 million by the time he was.23 years old. I wouldn’t call that chump change. I’m glad no one wrote me off at age 23.
@JayhawkRock78 You left out a few guys who played in the NFL that you may have never heard. Lynn Dickey. Tom Owen. Bobby Douglas. Barry Sanders. John Hadl. But I think they all were just backups. Or maybe they just made the taxi squads. I’m getting too old to remember.
I think it is disgusting that players will make remarks like these 10 years after the fact. If this is all true, McCants knew it was wrong at the time. I get tired of these prima donna players receiving benefits–academic or financial–making remarks years later, knowing they have nothing to lose, although it could cost someone else his/her career.
@wissoxfan83 You could have listed several others. Bill Bridges, Wayne Hightower, Walt Wesley, Dave Robisch, George Unseld, Dave Stallworth. Those are off the top of ny head.
@JayhawkRock78 Yep. It was Bud. Not spellcheck though. Just off the top of my head. Dave was considerably earlier and better, but for Wichita St.
@HighEliteMajor I would just like to know the names and Rivals rankings of the players you would have been recruiting from the class of 2014. And if anyone of those particular players opted to go somewhere else–like Karviar Shepherd did in 2013–who would you have gone after next? You have consistently promoted your theory that OADs are not good for Self’s system. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just would like some specifics.
I would just like the names of those you would have gone after and those you would recruit if the one you really wanted didn’t come to KU. Also, how low in the rankings would you go to get the type of player you really need?
I agree with you that it was a major blunder to not take Louisville. Maybe even instead of West Virginia if they didn’t want both of them. It would have improved the Big 12 in both football and basketball.
It was a mistake not to take Louisville even if it would have been considering them only for their football. They have been better than several in the Big 12. And it would be easier to add one more team to get the conference back to legitimacy.
I never considered the 1988 team to be great. A great player or two, but not a great team. A team that won because the higher seeds kept getting upset. Lost 11 games (most ever by an NCAA champ), had an-almost home game for the NC. Played NC game against a Billy Tubbs-coached team.
@HighEliteMajor What is the risk for the NCAA? And, out of all those schools that have taken so much risk, can you name any that have lost anything by taking that risk?
@JayHawkFanToo Agreed that the revenues are not generated by the players alone. However all those revenues you mentioned would not happen without the players–especially the elite players. And I’m not saying to pay them all several million a year. But I see no problem with the school loaning them money till they get to the NBA.
But if Josh Selby had been able to have been able to help his family while he was in college, he almost certainly would have returned to KU for at least one more year. Then he could have paid that money back when he got to the NBA. Unfortunately, he most likely felt the need to go for the instant money rather than wait to develop into an NBA-caliber player.
@DoubleDD “If a family was poor raising a future NBA star (so rare), then why couldn’t they live in poverty for a few more years so their son can not only hit the NBA lottery but have an education to go with it?”
I’ve never had to live in poverty, and I doubt many on this board have. That comment about living in poverty “for a few more years” is an example of how so many who have never had to live in poverty feel about the underprivileged.
If any system like this were to be implemented, it would have to be based on financial hardship. Again, I am not suggesting that schools just start doling out huge sums of money. But I think if there was a serious concern by college administrators and coaches, they could make it happen.
And I do think that a player such as Selby would have returned for a second season if given the opportunity to prove that he belonged in the NBA. Unfortunately, leaving after his freshman season probably cost him millions that he will never recover.