Roster possibilities
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@HighEliteMajor Can Ochai handle the ball well enough to play the 2? Have we talked to Jaevin Cumberland? That guy is a 2 all the way. Shot 40% from 3 last year. 2 to 1 a/t. 17 ppg. We get him, and have Ochai at the 3. The other way is having Ochai with ball handling duties, and Jalen… who is a freshman…and might not be so great on defense. I prefer going and getting the experienced guy, if possible.
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@Kcmatt7 I think Wilson is much more ready to contribute than Enaruna from day one but I could be wrong.
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BShark said:
@Kcmatt7 I think Wilson is much more ready to contribute than Enaruna from day one but I could be wrong.
I agree here. Enaruna didn’t even start on his HS team (although loaded) still points to a player that needs time to adjust.
Wilson has a college ready body for the most part. Great size for the wing position and is a scorer with a dependable 3 point shot. I can’t see us relying on Ochai solely to provide shooting, it just doesn’t work that way.
I have always been under the impression that Wilson has been undervalued. He’s not OAD ready but he’s skilled and can shoot. This is a guard in a 6’8 body. He would have played a big role at Michigan regardless of roster so I don’t see how that doesn’t translate here as well.
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BShark said:
@Kcmatt7 I think Wilson is much more ready to contribute than Enaruna from day one but I could be wrong.
I think he could fill a BG type of a role from day one, but that’s about it. I really don’t think he’s a great athlete from what I’ve seen. Definitely a below the rim guy.
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@HighEliteMajor I seriously think Grimes could not handle the fact the no-name red shirt was SO much better than him. Give me 5 Ochai’s over any Grimes-esque 1 and nones (not a typo!) any day! Go Och Go!!
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Kcmatt7 said:
BShark said:
@Kcmatt7 I think Wilson is much more ready to contribute than Enaruna from day one but I could be wrong.
I think he could fill a BG type of a role from day one, but that’s about it. I really don’t think he’s a great athlete from what I’ve seen. Definitely a below the rim guy.
Yeah I think Enaruna has more long term potential Wilson is just more ready to contribute right now. Agree on the BG comp.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
D dot and Ochai were pretty critical last year w/loss of doke and Silvio. They stepped up.
They stepped up true. I guess in my vague criteria of impactful, they weren’t good enough to get us another championship nor were they good enough to get us into the tourney very far. And Ochai’s game took quite a downturn towards the end. Hoping he figures out what to do to play like the post red shirt coming off games.
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@wissox you are tough, if d dot had doke or Silvio, maybe Vick, he would have been very good. For a red shirt w/A stress fracture,Ochai was not to shabby! I think you can depend on freshmen if the rest of your team doesn’t fold
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@wissox you are tough, if d dot had doke or Silvio, maybe Vick, he would have been very good. For a red shirt w/A stress fracture,Ochai was not to shabby! I think you can depend on freshmen if the rest of your team doesn’t fold
Trust Crims @wissox that injury was very difficult for Ochai. Amazing he was playing, no doubt effected his shooting.
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wissox said:
I never believe a freshman can lead KU to anything great. Sure, lets get Wilson and Watson whom I just learned about. How many ballyhooed freshman have we had that didn’t meet our lofty expectations. Not sure but the last time I remember freshmen coming in and exceeding expectations was when Collison, Heinrich and Gooden came in and were a revelation to me.
Who is this Watson you are speaking of? - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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jayballer73 said:
wissox said:
I never believe a freshman can lead KU to anything great. Sure, lets get Wilson and Watson whom I just learned about. How many ballyhooed freshman have we had that didn’t meet our lofty expectations. Not sure but the last time I remember freshmen coming in and exceeding expectations was when Collison, Heinrich and Gooden came in and were a revelation to me.
Who is this Watson you are speaking of? - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
I assume he meant Walker?
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@FarmerJayhawk he just knows paragraphs
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@FarmerJayhawk he just knows paragraphs
who is it that just knows paragraphs?
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@FarmerJayhawk Yes you’re right!
All my other friends. I know about the difficulties Dotson and Ochai faced, but they simply didn’t remind me of the types of freshman that would be known as transformative types. I’m probably wrong like I am every year when I pencil in KU on the last line on my bracket!
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jayballer73 said:
wissox said:
I never believe a freshman can lead KU to anything great. Sure, lets get Wilson and Watson whom I just learned about. How many ballyhooed freshman have we had that didn’t meet our lofty expectations. Not sure but the last time I remember freshmen coming in and exceeding expectations was when Collison, Heinrich and Gooden came in and were a revelation to me.
Who is this Watson you are speaking of? - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Sherlock was busy, so he called on Watson to piece together the mystery of the KU AMOEBA LINEUP …
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You guys, things are heating up.
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KUSTEVE said:
jayballer73 said:
wissox said:
I never believe a freshman can lead KU to anything great. Sure, lets get Wilson and Watson whom I just learned about. How many ballyhooed freshman have we had that didn’t meet our lofty expectations. Not sure but the last time I remember freshmen coming in and exceeding expectations was when Collison, Heinrich and Gooden came in and were a revelation to me.
Who is this Watson you are speaking of? - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Sherlock was busy, so he called on Watson to piece together the mystery of the KU AMOEBA LINEUP …
Lookie here MR - -you need to stop that lol - – - -you really think Sherlock might come and play for us lmao
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BShark said:
You guys, things are heating up.
Whoa
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@BeddieKU23 DD put up a poll on Twitter where he asked if he should change his uni number from 11 to 1, and Kyree responded, and everybody is going crazy…lol.
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I’m just happy KU is on his mind
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KUSTEVE said:
@BeddieKU23 DD put up a poll on Twitter where he asked if he should change his uni number from 11 to 1, and Kyree responded, and everybody is going crazy…lol
I voted - - keep 11 lol. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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KUSTEVE said:
@BeddieKU23 DD put up a poll on Twitter where he asked if he should change his uni number from 11 to 1, and Kyree responded, and everybody is going crazy…lol.
There are lots of reasons to feel good about this one. Pro-KU people in his ear from what I understand.
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@BShark I can’t pull it up…summarize please?
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@BShark good guess
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@jayballer73 me too…lol.
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@BShark Yes, the tweet.
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Hawk8086 said:
@BShark Yes, the tweet.
He responded to a tweet from Devon who was running a poll to determine his number at KU next season. He told DD to keep #11.
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Proposition: Dotson, Moss, Ochai, Silvio, Doke with Wilson, Garrett, McCormack, and McBride is the best team in the country. Change my mind
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@FarmerJayhawk - Don’t doubt it. Let’s hope KU gets those last two pieces!
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FarmerJayhawk said:
Proposition: Dotson, Moss, Ochai, Silvio, Doke with Wilson, Garrett, McCormack, and McBride is the best team in the country. Change my mind
I’ll allow it.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
Proposition: Dotson, Moss, Ochai, Silvio, Doke with Wilson, Garrett, McCormack, and McBride is the best team in the country. Change my mind
Bump
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Ok @FarmerJayhawk you asked for it (my fears not desire): Moss’ highlight video had him going off in a game they failed to reach 20 points by halftime. Garrett is an offensive liability. Dotson is good, but not Frank Mason Sr year good and Frank didn’t win anything. Dok will get hurt by the seasons end. Wilson isn’t here yet; Eunanura isn’t ready for big minutes. McCormack is rough. McBride is too short to get his shot so easily in college. Silvio is rusty as heck!
Michigan St is talented and experienced playing together. Duke has all the young talent. KU is cobbled together at the last minute.
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@dylans lol. Well done.
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@FarmerJayhawk I’d tend to agree with you. Isaiah Moss is kind of similar to Kyree Walker in terms of the skillset that he brings to next season’s team - 3-pt shooting, ball-handling, and the ability to create his own shot. Dotson was over 36% from 3 last season, and I’m expecting Ochai to be a little bit better than the 30.7% he shot from 3 last season. So there’s plenty of perimeter shooting in that starting backcourt.
We all know what Doke can do when he’s healthy. He’s already been mentioned a lot this offseason as a NPOY candidate and one of the favorites for the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar award.
Nobody really knows what we’re going to get with Silvio next season but we’re all expecting him to have an impact. Rebounds and dunks seem likely, but if he could also step out and hit a mid-range jumper it would help the spacing of the offense.
I’m getting major 2012 vibes from that starting lineup, except I think we’ll have a lot more depth than that team did, especially if we add Jalen Wilson.
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@dylans At least you have no concerns about Braun or Mitch …
The one I think we might be overestimating his immediate impact is Wilson. I could see that not being as soon as some project.
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Wilson is barely a top 50 recruit, those players don’t have a great history of being impact players immediately and sometimes not even an immediate rotation player. If Moss comes to KU, Wilson is likely 5th in the back court rotation and probably a non factor in the rotation unless Self goes 9 deep which I don’t recall him ever doing with consistency.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 in a dire class as well. Normally Wilson would be in the 80-90 range. Still a long term want though.
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BShark said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 in a dire class as well. Normally Wilson would be in the 80-90 range. Still a long term want though.
So Let me ask you this - -and everyone seems to think he will be a non impact player - and you thinking that in a normal class he would be a 80-90 rank player - - Why the hell did I hear Evan Daniels say that Jalen was actually under. ranked player/underrated - - -WHY did I hear Evan Daniels which I consider a pretty solid source say that actually Jalen should of been probably 10-15 spots HIGHER in the ranking - which it that would of been the case would of put him at 35-40 range? - What am I missing? - - what is Evan missing?
Was I on a huge massive Meth high - when Evan was discussing him or What? - Somebody is missing the boat on this kid - - just wondering who. - -Either you guys are missing the boat with him - - OR Evan is - someone let me know so I can figure out what to expect - -Hell I’ll even split the difference and say he is the number 42 1/2 ranked player in the nation. - -But all I’m hearing is how Jalen really isn’t all that - not gonna have any kind of impact – hearing this over and over and over.
I would of thought Evan would have a pretty good read on the kid seeing this is what he does for a living reconizing talent - seeing these kids week end - - week out But guess I’m wrong -huh imagine that lol. I personally myself think Jalen is better then what people are giving him credit for – -I personally think - Jalen is going to have more of an impact then people think he will.
Not really sure why some people want to try and shove him into the two spot so dam hard for - - I think you will see him a hell of a lot more at the Three then the two during the season - for sure he is capable of playing multiple positions - -I just think especially if Moss comes your gonna see Jalen exclusively at the three NOT the two - maybe every one can have a BIG POW WOW and come to mutual agreement where this kid should be ranked and how much impact he will have so the rest of us will know
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@jayballer73 If Moss and Wilson come, KU has a back court of Dotson, Garrett, Agabji, McBride, and Braun along with those two.
Self historically plays a 7-8 man rotation, and Wilson would be the 5th or 6th guard in that rotation. It doesn’t mean he’s a bad player, just means there would be better options ahead of him. In Self’s system, the 2 and the 3 are interchangeable on offense so it doesn’t matter if Wilson is a two or a three, he’s an off ball guard and would be behind Agbaji, Garrett, and Moss in that possible line up.
That equals minimal minutes once Self trimmed the rotation to 7 or 8 players.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 The theory is the 2-3 are interchangeable. That doesn’t mean it is always reality. When WVU ran their press, no way would we rely on Vick to bring the ball up, even though he was a 2/3. And who can forget those wonderful escapades when we tried to play Wayne at the 2…or EJ at the 1? They’re interchangeable only in Bill’s mind. Reality is we can’t have Dotson and two wings in the back court at the same time, imo. We couldn’t run out Dotson/Ochai/Wilson at the same time. It’s not going to work. That’s just not enough ball handling skills for our offense to work effectively. The first time Ochai gets doubled, does he have the ball handling skills to dribble out of it? That’s why I keep saying that Moss is more important than JW for this year. So, here are my scenarios… depending on who we sign:
If we whiff : Dot/MG/Ochai/Silvio/Doke
Moss only: Dot/Moss-MG/Ochai/Silvio/Doke
JW only : Dot/MG/Ochai-JW/Silvio/Doke
Both Moss & JW:
Dot/Moss-MG/Ochai-JW/Silvio/Doke
And it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if JW doesn’t pick up time at the 4… especially if he has challenges guarding on the perimeter ( which would not surprise me ).
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…and this is what happens when you don’t take care of the ball: ( 24 turnovers )
https://big12statistics.com/sports/mbkb/2018-19/boxscores/20190105_zgwj.xml?view=boxscore
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I think Bill would much rather have two great ball handlers and have the 1/2 be interchangeable.
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@BShark - it almost sounds like KU might acquire a 3 who handle the ball somewhat effectively against any kind of press, to the point of bringing the ball up part way. KU didn’t have that working well last year. Height and/or experience at the 3 has interesting possibilities beyond shooting.
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@KUSTEVE That box score is a crappy example for the point you’re trying to make. The two highest turnover totals were from Vick, a wing, and D. Lawson, a post player. Dotson was third in turnovers that game. The guy who best fits the description as the a 2-3 combo is Garrett who had one turnover.
Also, breaking pressure and running a half court set are not the same and Self does tend to use a second ball handler against teams that pressure a lot when he has that roster flexibility. Marcus Garrett is that flexibility because he is an above average ball handler because he was a PG in HS and I still believe is the best PG on this team.
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Better than Dot??!
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jayballer73 If Moss and Wilson come, KU has a back court of Dotson, Garrett, Agabji, McBride, and Braun along with those two.
Self historically plays a 7-8 man rotation, and Wilson would be the 5th or 6th guard in that rotation. It doesn’t mean he’s a bad player, just means there would be better options ahead of him. In Self’s system, the 2 and the 3 are interchangeable on offense so it doesn’t matter if Wilson is a two or a three, he’s an off ball guard and would be behind Agbaji, Garrett, and Moss in that possible line up.
That equals minimal minutes once Self trimmed the rotation to 7 or 8 players.
still gonna disagree and say we see him a lot more at the three. - -not competing with Dotson in the as you say back court - -even though he will be playing front line - he is even listed as a 3 SF - -not a 2 - -shooting guard/combo guard. - -your gonna have Moss/Garrett/Agabji - -competing for the 2 in the back court - not Wilson
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@jayballer73 In Self’s offense, the 2 and the 3 serve the same function. If KU lands Moss and Wilson, you will see those two along with Agbaji and Garrett subbed for interchangeably until the rotation is set. Dotson and McBride are the only two back court players who have set positions as lead guards, everyone else is off ball and in Self’s offense, that means they are interchangeable.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 mean very little in today’s game. A 1 is about the only position that you don’t see a lot of interchangeability with. Doke is a rarity in being a true 5 as the rest of KU’s big are variations of 4’s. McCormack and Silvio are traditional 4’s at this point unless Silvio has expanded his range, Mitch is an undersized 4, and Tristan is a stretch 4 in college and wing in the NBA, similar to the role Josh Jackson played at KU. Even between college and NBA, you see a lot of people play different positions like what Tristan will be doing here
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Vick had 7 turnovers in that game. Not what I would call “interchangeable”. To say that Wayne was “interchangeable” with Devonte when Frank was playing point guard is quite a stretch, imo. I’m not trying to be contentious, but theory is one thing, and practical application is another. I don’t think Ochai has a smidgen of the ball handling skills that a Marcus Garrett has, nor do I think JW has the ball handling skills at that level, either. Now, there is absolutely no doubt that both Ochai and JW have much better shooting skills than Marcus…of that I have no doubt. To me, they are wings…and if we try to play them together with Dotson w/o a Marcus or Moss on the floor, we’re going to be in trouble.
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We are building a team of very solid players up and down the roster. What this team lacks (still) is a true difference maker. Maybe Devon becomes that guy. Maybe Agbaji? But likely, KU puts together a very solid team that has issues closing some teams out because they lack a true go to guy.
I worry that unless Devon Dotson becomes something like Sherron Collins, we may be on the verge of witnessing that.
