This is getting tiring.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I’m not arguing that Self has an Elite8 monkey, but you still have to win in the Final 4, and you still have to win the National Championship. So Cal has been to the Final 4 what 6 times? And how many times has he won the Championship? Once? You really think 1-6 in the Final 4 is better than 2-7 in the E8?
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@Eric-san And how about Izzo?
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Cal is better than 1 and 6 in the Final Four
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@Blown I’m sure his record for the Final 4 is better than 1-6 but out of 6 Final 4 appearances, he only has 1 title does he not?
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There are realistically two coaches you would hire over Self–Coack K & Coach Cal
Both of those come with their baggage, too.
Self is in the top 5 of all active coaches in the country.
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@Eric-san yes 1-6 in the final four is better than 2-7 in the E8 because a final four is better. If we had had a few more final fours I’d feel better about us. That why no one talks about coach Ks 5 first weekend exits as a higher seed since 07 because he gets to the final four and has won 2 titles in that span. We have to win more titles to get to the dook level.
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@Eric-san said:
You really think 1-6 in the Final 4 is better than 2-7 in the E8?
What you said was he was 1 for 6 in the final four. I said he was not.
It looks like you meant to say he was 1 for 3 in the championship game.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said:
reality is Self has sucked in the Elite 8 with his 2-7 record
Have you ever thought that the record, and the high seedings, might reflect Self’s ability to take good teams higher than they might have deserved, rather than underachieving once there?
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@Eric-san Yes, 1-5 in the Final Four is absolutely better than 2-7 in the Elite 8. That’s 4 more opportunities than Self has had to win a title.
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@mayjay do you think that VCU, UCLA, GT, Nova and Oregon were all better teams than us? I definitely don’t.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Isn’t every loss in the tourney an opportunity lost at winning the title? Does it REALLY matter if you lose in the E8 or F4?
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@kjayhawks Well thats why you play the game is it not? Why play at all if the better team should always win.
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Yes Final Fours are an important bench mark. I think they do matter more than EE. It’s another entire week of having your brand out there.
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I agree with @Texas-Hawk-10 Self sucks in the elite 8. It’s not even a debate. He’s had the better team most the time and lost. Now still love Self but it’s very very frustrating to lose so many times at the same point.
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@BShark That’s where we will agree to disagree. I honestly don’t care if KU gets bounced in the e8 or F4, if it means they didn’t win the national championship.
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Cal vs Self is tough. If Cal takes ANOTHER title this year then really what can you say…
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@BShark I will take back everything I said in this thread, if Cal ends up winning the big one this year.
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@Eric-san I agree, that’s why it’s march madness. But the better team usually goes better than 2-5 like we are in that round.
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Fair enough. I think we have enough evidence to say it’s more than coincidence with Self and the EE at this point. But I mean, Self gets to the EE a LOT, so there is that.
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@mayjay So let’s look at Self’s Elite 8 teams that lost at KU. 2004, KU was a 4 seed and lost a 3 seed Georgia Tech, not an issue. 2007, 1 seed KU lost to 2 seed UCLA, not much shame there because UCLA was a top 5 team. 2011, KU lost VCU, anybody who claims that isn’t embarrassing is an idiot. 2016, 1 seed KU lost to 2 seed Nova and played like crap on offense. No reason KU should’ve lost that one. Last night, 1 seed KU lost to 3 seed Oregon because Self refused to make any and tell his guards to drive the damn ball. He chose to die by the 3 instead.
Self has flat out sucked in the Elite 8. 2004 is the only year I can think of that KU has reached 70 points in the Elite 8 under Self. Self butt puckers up so tight that you couldn’t even fit a paper clip in there. He’s been good in every other round, but for whatever reason, Self just sucks in the Elite 8.
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It’s really only the E8 game for whatever reason. Self has as good of record as anyone in the FF and the NC game. And better than most thus far. And he is the guy that only gets better from here. I believe that. He knows it’s a problem. Any other time he knows something needs adjusted or tweaked he does that. He will do this too. His best tournament runs are yet to come. We’re just spoiled and impatient. And we should be. It’s KU
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Three point percentage in the losses I could find. GT isn’t showing status.
Consistent theme in the EE losses.
3pt %
Oregon 20
Nova 27
UCLA 50
VCU 9
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@Eric-san Yes, it matters. Would you rather have Self’s or Izzo’s resume?
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Lowest points KU scored ALL SEASON last night.
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I would take Self over Izzo.
Self is 8 years younger.
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Besides, if Izzy was our coach ya’ll would be doing the same damn thing with him…
“Seven final fours and 1 championship isn’t enough–he just can’t get over the hump”
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Are we talking about the Izzo that hasn’t won a title since 2000? 7 final fours in 18 years? Once again, Final Fours are great, if it leads to a National Championship. I’ll take my chances with Self.
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Anyone that thinks recruiting hits rough patches for KU now would LOSE THEIR MIND with Izzo.
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@BShark And only 59 points last year in the EE. That is the problem. We go from averaging over 90 down to scoring 60. The Dux D is good, but not that good. We just looked flat all night and it only takes one flat game to send you home.
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Agree bu it does sometimes feel like Duke, UK, and UNC to some extent get their choices and then the rest are fighting for scraps.
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I remember in 2003 when Roy missed all those free throws. That was annoying, too.
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@BigBad thats because they do. But Josh Jackson and Wiggins & the like are pretty decent scraps. We just don’t get 2-3 of them every year. Our lack of a skilled scorer inside last night was a huge hole. You can blame that on Braggs lack of development.
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Duke always closes their leans it seems. Team USA thing helps a lot and K is a “living legend”. Lately UK misses a fair bit, if you look at the final classes for them they aren’t bad because they need a ton of guys every year but 2015 in particular UK missed on a lot of their first choices. Self seems to have good and bad spurts in recruiting. Diallo and now Bragg struggling has hurt a lot. Now with Bragg it’s very clear that he just isn’t as good as his HS hype, but it still hurts in recruiting. Fortunately Josh was fantastic this year and I hope Preston and Doke tear it up next year. We have seen what having unathletic bigs looks like and it’s not pretty.
@Big-Clyde52 said:
@BShark And only 59 points last year in the EE. That is the problem. We go from averaging over 90 down to scoring 60. The Dux D is good, but not that good. We just looked flat all night and it only takes one flat game to send you home.
Agree. It’s a very negative trend and denying it at this point seems crazy. For whatever reason, Self’s teams play tight in EE games. Even in the wins.
@Blown said:
I remember in 2003 when Roy missed all those free throws. That was annoying, too.
Not the same thing we are talking about now 7 games for Self at KU where the team has played tight. Players do pick up on things from their coach. There are still very few coaches I would trade Self for though.
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I was so, so wrong about Bragg.
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@BShark How can you tell if coach was tight or not? Is it simply a direct correlation you draw between poor shooting?
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Self has openly commented about how hard elite eight games are. And the players have been tight you could really say in every EE game. In 2012 KU bullied a UNC team missing their PG, in 2008 they escaped Davidson in an otherwise great tournament that ended fantastically.
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@Eric-san So Izzo has the same number of titles as Self and 4 times the Final Four appearances which means four times better chances to win a title.
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@Blown Self reverted to form last night. Stopped subbing and quit making adjustments in the second half. Vick played reasonably well in the first half and actually scored. Why wasn’t he playing over Graham in the 2nd half who couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat last night? Why wasn’t he telling Mason, Jackson, amd Graham to drive the ball and get to FT line since the 3’s weren’t falling?
Self’s butt was than the security at Ft. Knox last night just like it has been in every Elite 8 game.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Yea Izzo had 4 more chances at the title, but does chances equal winning? He hasn’t won a title in those 4 trips anyway, so does it really matter that Izzo made it to the Final 4?
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Everyone needs a day to process the loss. Nothing productive ever comes from bagging on things when the loss is so fresh. I’m just as guilty of it as the next person on here.
It sucks we lost especially how we played to get to this point. And the guys just didn’t respond how we hoped or wanted them too.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree on the driving. I said at about the 6-7 minute mark that they needed to start driving every play. I don’t know why they didn’t other than the fact that Bell completely owned the paint blocked everything in sight without even getting 2 fouls called on him all game. 8 blocks. That’s big time.
As far as everything else goes: there is no explanation for the missed shots. Many were wide open looks and we just bricked them.
Part of the tightness could be attributed to 4 of the five starters experiencing last years elite 8 loss.
A big ‘what if’ I will always wonder is how much losing Josh 2 minutes into the game impacted the overall mentality. That second foul was bullsh**
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It’s all about the ride to the end, and no other school or team has a better ride during the season than KU does on a regular basis. It is just as important to enjoy the whole season as a fan, as opposed to the last 3 weeks of a single round elimination tournament, where the best team doesn’t always win.
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Matt Tait said we were loose as always in warmups. Perhaps we all tightened up when josh got his 2nd foul w/17 plus left? Completely changed the game. I think we were only 1 down when he came back in which speaks well for Vick. But josh was not the same! Oregon was our perfect storm no matter which game it was. Completely exposed our loss of Doke. Dg had an off pm. Oregon looked really good.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Everyone needs a day to process the loss. Nothing productive ever comes from bagging on things when the loss is so fresh. I’m just as guilty of it as the next person on here.
It sucks we lost especially how we played to get to this point. And the guys just didn’t respond how we hoped or wanted them too.
Well said. This board has been really great in comparison to the drivel on 247 and phog though.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Losing JJ that early probably reminded the team of the TCU game and started panicking. As pressure started building, emotions started taking over.
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I was actually shocked to see JJ come back in with 10 minutes left. I thought Vick played just fine up to that point. And because JJ had to be careful of picking up a 3rd, he started to think instead of reacting. In hindsight would have been better to just sit JJ to the half, let him gain composure, and refocus to begin the 2nd half.
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@Eric-san said:
I was actually shocked to see JJ come back in with 10 minutes left. I thought Vick played just fine up to that point. And because JJ had to be careful of picking up a 3rd, he started to think instead of reacting. In hindsight would have been better to just sit JJ to the half, let him gain composure, and refocus to begin the 2nd half.
Agree here and think that a close game at half telling the team Josh didnt even play would build confidence. However its a gamble. Self probably saw how Oregon’s best athlete Bell was controlling things and how Mason was our only option. He knew we needed our best athlete to stay close.
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@BigBad I wonder why Vegas had us as 7 point favorites. It is amazing we even had a .500 record with the way you describe our players. The 5’10" guy happened to be the NPOY. Our record in EE games is now 2-5. That wasn’t a relaxed team I saw out there- that was a jazzed up team that played scared. Nice job picking out what you feel is a sleight in my post. Sounds like you want to pick a fight. Welcome to the board, btw.
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@Eric-san said:
I was actually shocked to see JJ come back in with 10 minutes left. I thought Vick played just fine up to that point.
I thought so, too, but then it occurred to me that Vick usually subs when someone needs a rest. DC was in for Lucas, so Josh had to come in to give Svi and Vick a rest. And Svi did come back with some energy esp on defense.
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@KUSTEVE said:
@BigBad I wonder why Vegas had us as 7 point favorites. It is amazing we even had a .500 record with the way you describe our players. The 5’10" guy happened to be the NPOY. Our record in EE games is now 2-5. That wasn’t a relaxed team I saw out there- that was a jazzed up team that played scared. Nice job picking out what you feel is a sleight in my post. Sounds like you want to pick a fight. Welcome to the board, btw.
I’m not picking a fight. I’ve learned to not fall into the Bill Self trap. EVERY year his teams exceed their talent level in their regular season. Then when a tourney match up up with a team with better talent playing well beats us. I dont usually get disappointed. Heck against VCU we, a freaking blue blood, were starting Brady Morningstar and Tyrel Reed. Great ROLE players but not final four caliber players. I wasnt surprised.
This year we depended on a very small player. Frank is great! However once the talent levels out and size becomes a huge factor we are in trouble.
