Bill Self "growth stunter"
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@drgnslayr I forget which year it was that Self said his team was tough. Thinking it was the final four year, but it may have been the blowout loss to Oregon year too. I forget. May have been 2020 which was definitely a tough team. I went and looked at their schedule. They lost to Duke, Nova, Baylor, no slouches there of course, defeated national runner up TT twice and future NC Baylor. I think that team was tough.
How do you quantify tough? Is it going unbeaten? Winning in tough places? Coming back in a game like we did the other night and overcoming an unheard of shooting slump? Is it just intimidating the heck out of everyone like Kentucky 2012 did? Is it playing lockdown defense? Or is it having an offense that will always score more than your shaky defense gives up?
I’d think this years version of tough for us is looking to be the last one. Not thinking we’re going to ride our defense to a title, but I think our offense can carry us to a title.
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@wissox said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
How do you quantify tough? Is it going unbeaten? Winning in tough places? Coming back in a game like we did the other night and overcoming an unheard of shooting slump? Is it just intimidating the heck out of everyone like Kentucky 2012 did? Is it playing lockdown defense? Or is it having an offense that will always score more than your shaky defense gives up?
I don’t always think the toughest teams win. I think part of it is optics. What we see. We see guys scrapping it out. Running at full speed on every play. Exhausted yet still hitting another gear.
There are different kinds of tough. There is physical toughness. Being exhausted but still going hard. There is also mental toughness. Our current team is in good physical shape and we have a bench to help the minutes load. But what I did see at OSU was a certain amount of mental toughness. I didn’t see our guys give up. Didn’t see heads hanging low or frustration. If the sportscasters didn’t keep telling us, you couldn’t tell they had missed 20 or so shots in a row. That mental toughness impressed me. I was also impressed with David and his physical toughness. He stepped up and hustled.
I see other guys not quite being tough enough in some areas.
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Tough means not soft. Win while playing ugly. I think we had some long discussions a few years ago about playing ugly. I’m not sure how to quantify any of these classic Self phrases, but they are all related. Can you be tough when your team is pretty, or just ugly?
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I would like to think that Remy has another gear, and he’s been pulling the Tyshawn Taylor senior year trick. I think there is another level to his game that could truly change our fortunes. Hopefully him and Bill can mindmeld and unlock his talents. Remy going off will really help Braun and Och, and open things up. As much as I want OCH and Braun to be alphas, the real alpha is Remy. I bet he’s the guy that’s going to take the last shot.
I also think Big Dave will now be known as Good Dave the rest of the season. The benching helped, and we saw some really nice work the other night. He made some nice shots, and actually rebounded the ball for once. I know- he also had some sucky moments, but Good Dave has finally reappeared.
JW is literally killing us on offense. He can’t possibly continue his level of suckness - it’s mathematically impossible. Well, maybe it is possible, but I’m still going with the “impossible” line to push my narrative: 2 for 23 from 3. He will get better, or Coach will make him stop shooting 3s. Either way, we suddenly get better. He is our best rebounder, and it’s not close.
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“The best players on this team are perimeter guys. That means interior guys are on the floor to play hard, grab rebounds and dunk lobs. That’s it. They get few or no post touches because that’s not the strength of this team. Last night, Big Dave got going because he was pursuing every rebound. That has to continue. He has to understand that most of his offense will come from putbacks, so he better get on the glass on both ends. Same for Mitch. Same for whoever else gets minutes at the 5.“
Bingo
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@Jethro Agree with you on Remy. I think he will take off as you say whenever he hears that “it’s his team,” which makes it difficult since he is the new guy. With some of the softness and uncertainty we’ve seen lately from Ochai, I think he might welcome that from Remy.
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Man if Remy can become the talent the writers made the preseason POY in the league this team becomes one of the threats to win it all. Not sure it happens without him.
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He’s not playing to his potential and there is several reasons for it. I think he has deferred to Och and CB but if this team is going far this season he’s going to have to assume more of the Alpha role on this team. I think the team would easily get behind him too if he does
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@BeddieKU23 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
He’s not playing to his potential and there is several reasons for it. I think he has deferred to Och and CB but if this team is going far this season he’s going to have to assume more of the Alpha role on this team. I think the team would easily get behind him too if he does
I think the same. While Och and CB have obviously been playing well, all-league all-American well, Remy is going to have to pick up his scoring and assume the leadership role that his personality almost dictates. I want to see Remy be a bit more selfish.
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Yeah Remy has been too unselfish especially when he dribbles. He’s rarely drawn contact which he can do easily with how he plays. He wants to make the spectacular pass which I get but its not helping himself or the team. I’m happy with his effort to please his Coach but its time to tighten up and do what he’s good at. Especially with Ochai coming back to earth we need to see him step up
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@BeddieKU23 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
Yeah Remy has been too unselfish especially when he dribbles. He’s rarely drawn contact which he can do easily with how he plays. He wants to make the spectacular pass which I get but its not helping himself or the team. I’m happy with his effort to please his Coach but its time to tighten up and do what he’s good at. Especially with Ochai coming back to earth we need to see him step up
Yup, but the question is really will he be allowed to? Sure seems as though he’s got a leash on at the moment. I sure hope he can “unleash” himself and play more to his skill set.
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Self tells him to shoot more
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It took Malik Newman like 25 games before he finally “got it” so I’m personally not panicked. Outside of Josh Jackson I can’t remember a single guy who ever came in and just was the perfect Bill Self player in both mentality and talent.
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@Kcmatt7 Newman also was after a year of sitting ie being with the team
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Agree JJ was remarkable. BAseline dunks on UK heads 4evA
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If we talk about kids who started off with a bang and don’t account for sitting BMac was pretty special
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And Xavier and oubre I think were on lesser teams to JJ but were close
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@approxinfinity said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
If we talk about kids who started off with a bang and don’t account for sitting BMac was pretty special
I firmly believe we win it all in 12 if Ben could’ve played
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@approxinfinity said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
And Xavier and oubre I think were on lesser teams to JJ but were close
Xavier was on the team that lost to Northern Iowa in the tournament and was a team that should’ve won the title as well as they were #1 most of the season and never ranked lower than 3rd at any point. For my money, Xavier Henry is by far the most underrated OAD to come through KU.
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@approxinfinity Bill messed with Oubre too much Imo. I thought he should have started day 1 and just let him figure out stuff on the court. But that’s never been Bill’s style (except with Grimes which is still weird tbh).
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@FarmerJayhawk Yea I’d bet if you replaced 17 Teahan minutes with BMac and we have a different ball game.
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BMac had an absurd year. Technically a FR but gotta think the off year helped.
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@Kcmatt7 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@approxinfinity Bill messed with Oubre too much Imo. I thought he should have started day 1 and just let him figure out stuff on the court. But that’s never been Bill’s style (except with Grimes which is still weird tbh).
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@Kcmatt7 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
It took Malik Newman like 25 games before he finally “got it” so I’m personally not panicked. Outside of Josh Jackson I can’t remember a single guy who ever came in and just was the perfect Bill Self player in both mentality and talent.
I get what you’re saying, but with Remy it is different. When the guy shoots, he more often than not scores. We don’t want nor need for him to be the volume shooter/scorer that he was at ASU, but do need for him to lead this team and look for his shot more.
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@Kcmatt7 oubre was a bit lazy, I love the guy. The WSU game
, no hustle!
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@wissox funny how others saw what he was and how he can impact this team yet Self decided to take it upon himself to completely change how remy plays taking shots via the media and complaining constantly when he’d have comments on good plays.
Bill doesn’t get our best players to play at their best he picks and chooses who he likes who are oddly never the best guys (traylor, Mostar, ect).
Remy came to Allen and torched us yet now he never looks to get downhill like Frank or graham would (prior to his knee even)…that says enough Self will look back at this team and still not seeing his blindness and lack of maximizing the talent he had
Oh and Baylor torched us that 2020 year in Allen we went back there and won a hard fought game. 2020 wasn’t guaranteed and Baylor just as much could say they could have won it and be back to back
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Do you ever think that’s because Remy can’t beat guys off the dribble that well? Not a strength of his.
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@kuballin10 Agreed about Baylor, but we seemingly had it turned up a notch. They would have been our biggest threat to winning it all.
I really don’t understand your comment about Remy. Why would Bill do that to one of our players?
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@wissox gonna have to ask Bill your guess is as good as mine but everyone knew our O was a mirage with easy schedule.
Sure would be nice if we had ball dominate scoring and distributing Remy when we can’t buy a bucket
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Well Joe and Zach played today, how’d they look?
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Bill wants Remy to score, thinking otherwise is just dumb.
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@BShark scared to make a mistake or else they get the yank. You seen Tristan play defense and rim run at all this year? Different player when his coach instills confidence in him not the short leash one mistake against technical school in November and you’re pulled.
Joe scored 32 on a team Harris and our guards couldn’t get a shot off in the paint. Shows all the potential and now he looks so uncomfortable and not confident out there.
Who do you think did that?
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@BShark really? What about anything self has said this season early on and how remy’s played constantly passing left and right hardly looking for shots says Bill has encouraged it???
Bill has flat out said he takes bad shots at bad times and is all frustrated. Where you been all season?
Also - Self showing his ignorance fronting Harris with “he’s undefeated in summer ball that’s unheard of” literally had me rolling. Yeah summer ball translates to when the lights come on.
Zach we are told dominates in a practice but never gets any run so the whole show us in practice to get minutes is Bs for mr BS
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You are putting too much stock in one 9 game hot stretch against mostly bad competition by Yesufu.
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The far bigger issue for this team is defense, the piece are not there to make it a great defense either. Part of this is recruiting which obviously struggled in 19 and 20.
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@kuballin10 He wants Remy to score within the system. Dotson, Frank, Graham etc all scored within this system just fine.
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@BShark said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
The far bigger issue for this team is defense, the piece are not there to make it a great defense either. Part of this is recruiting which obviously struggled in 19 and 20.
Agree. Not going to be a great defensive team. Need to score.
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@BShark what did he do against the best when the lights were the brightest? Apply your same logic and mine to our guys last year.
You probably played sports. A great coach is tough but instills confidence while wanting you to improve.
Billy never spoke well about Remy from day 1. Everyone’s talked about them “gelling” or each “giving a little”.
That’s all Bill’s fault. He should say we want remy’s D to catch up with his O. He’s so quick he should get 2-3 steals a game and control the game on both ends. We already know he can create just honing in the timing while staying aggressive.
Instead he pumps Harris’ summer gym record like it matters or anyone gives a crap but clearly Billy does…
Meanwhile he trashed remy even when remy saved us one game it was negativity when asked
That’s just being an @$$ not a great coach I’d expect
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@BShark he does? Sure does talk like it because anything remy does on O is questioned.
Bills system is the problem so glad you brought it up. Reason he has minimal involvement in team USA stuff they know how he is and no nba talk in years. The warriors and modem ball has changed just like nfl has and even saban has accepted in college.
Remy will never know the system like 4 year guys and self’s system he’s so rigid in instead of letting guys get good shots within it with a bigger leash.
Harris can’t shoot a bad shot in selfs mind and Remy can’t take a good.
Dave can’t take a bad shot cause it’s in self’s system. Self was mad Dave wasn’t making shots but not Dave chucking up bricks.
The game now is open the floor and spacing. The inside opens it up on the outside is proven true every night the game is played.
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@BShark I agree with this as well. ISU and Tristan plays better (more aggressive) D and we look slow and unathletic on D because we are.
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Tristan has had a couple good games for ISU but otherwise meh, looks like the same Tristan to me.
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@BShark you’ve seen 10 minutes of isu Baylor I’d guess. I watched them in nyc he was night and day different. The aggression, look on his face, all over the floor with his wide wingspan. For that defense we agree on would be nice to have.
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I’m referring to the several games where he had 6 or less points.
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what the hell was that - -no fricken call. Harris got hit in the back
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Good GOD are you serious ?
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@BShark box score watching checking points my point is he’s playing great D, all over the court and getting dunks and put backs. The O isn’t ran through him and he’s excelling playing aggressive while here he made 1 mistake and was yanked.
Only tcu last year he played well and go figure he had a huge leash with other guys out…played loose
It’s all on coach he berates then but doesn’t build them up. His shtick is getting old.
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@kuballin10 I appreciate your take and its part of a natural tension that keeps it real.
The other side being necessary as well. He’s one of the winningest coaches of the last decade. That’s a pretty good schtick.
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@approxinfinity win percentage is nice but only one thing matters…titles
He no doubt wins regular season stuff but same titles as Scott Drew and about to be passed in the next 2-3 years I’d say. Wright, Roy, K…ect. It’s the reason Cal isn’t that great X’s and O’s But he gives his kids long leashes. Lose some in the regular season but be better prepared for the tourney which is more important.One is improving the other is going backwards (Drew vs self).
Pride is a killer.
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I seen this on ESPN traile, now it was eith the 3rd - or the 5th straight loss for KU against a top 25 ranked team longest in Self’s tenure - -not good
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When you literally tell teams you are throwing it inside to start the game the first 3-4 possessions and you dont have Doke…you deserve to lose.
Self said when they had Dok they’d walk into every gym knowing they could beat anyone. We don’t have him now but still trying to get easy buckets the problem with the self logic is the buckets due to the bucketgetter aren’t easy because the player isn’t that good (yes, I stole a word from this site bucketeers or bucketgetter)
Players see our style and see the favoritism for worse players but they are older or “run the system”. Self is at fault because he is arrogant enough to think his system is what wins when in realty it has been and always will be the players.
