ken Pom this!
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Looks like Wayne will be back next year.
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KenPom’s rankings don’t even agree with other computer rankings; I think he has a KU and OU bias built in his algorithm, He is only one of two out 40 computer rankings that has OU ahead of KU and he has KU 8 spots behind OU.
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No other team in the top 25 other than OU with 6 loses!!!
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@wrwlumpy Upvote for the box score.
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OU loses at Baylor…if that does not drop OU then I don’t know what will.
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@JayHawkFanToo been a good day, but a lot off bb to go!!!
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Yep. I think is time to put the laptop away for the day.
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@wrwlumpy I actually hope Jesse continues his dreamy eyed admiration for KenPom. When the hammer falls, and he learns the truth about his new love, he’s going to need us to be there for him. Let him sow his youthful wild oats on wild flings with the likes of Ken ’ used car " Pomeroy-like the prodigal son, he will be back, and we’ll welcome him back to reality with open arms.
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KU is 16-3, 5-1 in conference while OU 12-7 and 3-4 in conference and they are now just one spot below KU. No other team on KenPoms Top 25 has 6 loses let alone 7…KenPom’s system is broken.
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@wrwlumpy Kenpom should print out his whole schematic on every division one team this season and EAT IT WHOLE when KU wins the Big 12 for the 11th straight time.
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There is no “i” in “Jesse.”
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@Jesse-Newell can you send us a shot chart again? Thank you!!
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@Jesse-Newell Also, there is no I in TEAM. You’re my favorite Jess e.
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Very clever…and very true. ROTFLMAO
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@Jyhwk_InTigrtwn LOL - I’ve never seen that before.
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What a play: Self on Monday commented on Jamari Traylor’s amazing hustle play against Texas. Traylor blocked a shot, had his shot blocked, went flying into the stands chasing an offensive rebound, ran to the other end and dove on a loose ball at halfcourt, the ball kicking to Frank Mason III, who scored a basket and was fouled.
“It’s the best play anybody has made since I’ve been here. Everybody says Mario’s shot,” said Self, referring to Mario Chalmer’s three-pointer that sent the 2008 NCAA title game into overtime. “Mario’s shot was a great shot. This was the best play. It was a 17- to 20-second play he made. I’ve never seen a better dive for the ball. Not only did he dive for it, he dove for it and stole it as he dove.
“It was as good a play I’ve witnessed a guy making. There’s been a fancier pass, this or that. This was an extended play. It was a special deal. He was so proud of himself, and the team was so proud of him.”
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@wrwlumpy said:
@Jesse-Newell Also, there is no I in TEAM. You’re my favorite Jess e.
@wrwlumpy said:
@Jesse-Newell Also, there is no I in TEAM. You’re my favorite Jess e.
But there is an I in Meat pie, the anagram of Meat is Team, look I dont know how that follows but whatever
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Laughed so hard I almost swallowed my tongue!
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Ken Pomeroy jumps the shark once again…
It should not come as big surprise but Ken Pomeroy now has Oklahoma at #11 (13-7 and 4-4 in conference) ranked higher than KU #12 which is 17-3 and 7-1 in conference; of course he has Wichita State also ranked higher than KU at #9.
In comparison, Jeff Sagarin has KU at #10, WSU at #13 and OU at #17. Massey has KU #4, WSU at #13 and OU at #28. The average of all computer rankings as of last Sunday has KU at #7, WSU at #13 and OU at #22; all 3 teams won so the rankings should not have changed much.
Pomeroy’s rankings do not “match national perception” like he mentioned when ranking conferences and they are ad odd with all the other computer rankings as well. I would really like @Jesse-Newell to explain the discrepancy ,although it would not surprise me if by now he also has a problem with Pomeroy’s rankings.
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@JayHawkFanToo What are the chances that Ken Pom is Fran Fraschilla’s pseudonym??
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Maybe HCBS is playing games with all the ranking services. The dramatic swing of our performances just keep everyone guessing. When can anyone predict a game that pans out as predicted? Maybe we start with KSU? I am still clueless. The only thing I know is that HCBS has several versions that he can dish out to win games. RCJH!
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The KenPom rankings aren’t necessarily for the rankings of the best teams. I use them more for the ranking of schedule strength and efficiency on both ends. The points per 100 possessions gives you a really good feel for how strong a defense or offense actually is because it evens out the playing field for teams that play at a slow pace and teams that play at a fast pace.
For example, KU’s defense is not as stout this year as it usually has been under Self. This has been a 2 year phenomenon borne out in the numbers. Under Self, KU was routinely in the top 10 or 15. This year we are 36. Our offense is very good, but not spectacular, which is also shown in the numbers, as we rank 16 in offense.
I like the Adjusted offense and defense because it shows why a team like Wisconsin is so good. Wisconsin averages 73 points a game, good for 50th in the country.
However, they play at a slower pace than most. Their average per 100 possessions is 123.5. The best offenses in the NBA average slightly better than 110 points per 100. That Wisconsin mark is really eye popping, which is why I won’t be surprised if they get to the Final Four even though their defense isn’t quite as stout as it has been.
It also gives you a good feel for why Kentucky is so scary. They have faced the #13 schedule as far as offense is concerned, with their opponents averaging 105 points per 100 possessions. If that were an actual team, that mark would be a top 100 offense in D1. However, UK is only surrendering 80 points per 100 possessions. That’s almost 4 points better than Virginia’s defense, which is also pretty fierce.
Do I think that makes Utah the 5th best team in the country? No. Ken Pom’s rankings don’t do a good job of telling me that.
But they do tell me that Utah’s defense is elite (5th in the country), which will make them very tough going forward. On the other hand, Notre Dame may not be as tough because their elite offense is paired with a fairly average defense. That means a bad shooting night will almost always sink the Irish, while a tough shooting night for the Utes doesn’t mean much because they can get stops.
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None. Fran is one of the better informed analysts. His ESPN beat is the Big 12 and he is very familiar with all the conference teams, unlike others, like Musburger, that read from notes prepared by someone else that are also unfamiliar with the conference and end up making silly statements at game time.
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Coach Self in the KC Star -
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Yes, some of the number from KenPom are useful, but the ultimate objective of all those number is to use all of a portion of them together to come up with a ranking. and this is where the KenPom model fails.
There are now 40+ computer generated models used to rank teams and they all use basically the same numbers with their one twists, but by and large, they are (naturally) fairly close to each other; however, the Pomeroy’s rankings, at least for the teams I have been tracking, seem to be quite at odds with all these other computer models.
IMHO, once Pomeroy went “Hollywood,” i.e. commercial, his models were changed to be 'trendy" rather than accurate. Years ago, his ranking passed the common sense test, now they don’t. Jeff Sagarin is the pioneer in the filed and he along with Kenneth Massey are now the standard in the field.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Jeff Sagarin is the pioneer in the filed and he along with Kenneth Massey are now the standard in the field.
Honestly, I don’t think any of those models actually work when it comes to ranking. The numbers are great for ranking offense, defense and schedule strength. However, I am always cautious when those numbers are combined in order to reach an overarching conclusion.
The problem with all of these is weighting. For example, West Virginia and Louisville both have top notch defenses according to Ken Pom (top 15), but offenses ranked in the 40’s. Massey rates Louisville’s defense very well (top 15) but comes out middling on WVU (80). However, he rates WVU’s offense as a top 15 unit. Why the drastic change? Well, Ken Pom’s model rewards turnovers very generously, which pressing teams generate by the bushel. However, that pace hurts their offense because it gives them more possessions, and since neither WVU or Louisville is very efficient in the half court, their offensive ranking suffers in Ken Pom. I am not as familiar with Massey, so I don’t know how he weights offense and defense based on pace, but that’s a big issue.
Like I said though, I use Ken Pom not for the overall, but for the offense and defense because he normalizes the pace in much the same way that they do for the NBA, which makes it much easier to compare, especially since there are so many different styles in CBB.
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This is the latest Pomeroy ranking of Big 12 teams. I used only the top 8 conference teams since we are more familiar with them;
Ranking, overall and confrere record and conference standing:
- No. 9 - Oklahoma, 14-7, 5-4, T-4
- No. 11 - Kansas 18-3, 7-1. 1
- No. 13 - Baylor 16-5, 4-4, 6
- No. 16 - WVU 18-3, 6-2, T-2
- No. 24 - ISU 16-4, 6-2, T-2
- No. 26 - Texas, 3-5, 8
- No. 28 - Oklahoma State 14-7, 4-5, 7
- No. 74 - KSU 12-10, 5-4, T-4
I don’t have a problem with the bottom 3 in the list but the top 5 are, IMHO, all wrong; I just don’t get the love Pomeroy has for Oklahoma; they were a couple of spots below KU and after their win over 7th place OSU they moved once again above KU, never mind that KU beat a higher ranked (in conference KSU). His ranking are also at odds with most evry other ranking computerized or otherwise. I would personally list them in this order:
- KU
- ISU
- WVU
- OU
- Baylor
I would be particularly interested in what @Jesse-Newell thinks about these rankings.
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Here is the average of 40 computer rankings with Sunday games included:
- No. 8 - KU
- No. 13 - WVU
- No. 14 - ISU
- No. 16 - OU
- No. 17 - Baylor
- No. 24 Texas
- No. 31 Oklahoma State
- No. 64 - TCU
- No. 69 - KSU
- No. 144 Texas Tech.
The top 5 are just about the same I have; I had ISU and WVU tied for second but place ISU ahead because of its win over top ranked KU; if you take KU out, Pomeroy has it completely backwards. Pomeroy and Stat Fox are the only rankings that have Oklahoma in the top 10. Pomeroy is not only out of whack with the general public perception (AP and coaches rankings) but also with just about every other computer ranking as well.
